Trans men like craigslist’s w4w

September 18, 2008 at 7:58 am | In dating | 11 Comments
Tags: craigslist, dating, ftm, trans men

The subject pops up and simmers for a few days and then dies down, only to be revisited three months later. The place? San Francisco’s w4w category of craigslist.org. Check it out for yourself, right now: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/ppp?query=ftm

From a recent entry in this interminable debate:

Of course, Craig’s List could make this real easy and set this up in the posting process, but until they do… with the exception of the male-identifying biological men that post or search for their cheap thrills, I think we can say we’re all women seeking women (regardless of what label works best for us)

Except, of course, male-identified trans men–living life as men, receiving varying degrees of male privilege based on other factors–are not women seeking women.

On a usual day cruising the craigslist SF bay personals using the search term “ftm”, up to half the ads (and most of the ads specifically seeking female and not male partners) will be posted in w4w. The way it’s justified differs by trans man, but generally it’s a combination of “misc romance sucks” and “I never get any responses in m4w.”

Craigslist in general is kind of slim pickings for m4w. It has a sleazy reputation. It’s the bottom of the barrel as a dating site, no membership fee or vetting process, full of ill-disguised porn ads and other bait and switch come ons, no way of interacting with another person besides the ads themselves and the emails that result. While perhaps a hasty assessment, it is the dark alley of internet dating and hooking up. Many women (and men, for that matter) steer clear.

W4W gives women who date and have sex with women a place in particular in the craigslist world. Trans men’s continued participation in it even after their presence has been questioned is problematic for a few reasons.

As the quote above indicates, it reinforces transphobic ways of looking at trans men. It reifies our place in the category “women”, and how could it not?
it encourages a binary world based on the birth sex assignment. It assumes vaginas=women (see below on what this means for trans women), even though the genital status of anyone posting is unknown.
It reinforces the special snowflake syndrome of some trans men, who like to view themselves and other trans men as “not like other men” and indeed something of mascots of the young, urban, hip, technologically agile lesbian scene.
It solidifies the erroneous view of a lesbian gender scale that goes from femme-andro-butch-ftm, as if all trans men are just butches who took it a step farther, as if trans men themselves don’t have a wide range of gender expression.

it has a chilling effect on any trans woman’s claim to women’s space, to lesbianism. In fact it is just one example of many of this phenomenon. If trans men clamor to be included in women’s space regardless of their gender identities, if they purposefully lean on their (arguably untrue) female socializations and girlhoods and (some of) their histories in the dyke community–it draws that big biologically determinist line in the sand that tells trans women they should stay out and rewards some non-trans women for continued policing of the space based on birth sex assignment. It sows the seeds of transmisogyny.

Some more points I’m not going to bullet point include: It sets women who just want a space free of men up to claims of transphobia even though there is nothing transphobic about it; the fervor it creates diminishes actual transphobia; it engenders continued hostility towards trans men as fakes and opportunists; it creates this weird atmosphere where coding trans men under the rubric “women” seems like the nontransphobic thing to do.

Life isn’t fair. The relative paucity of good m4w catches is no reason to justify all this. If you are into queer women, deal with posting in misc romance, and identify yourself as ftm in search of queer woman. Similarly one could easily set up a m4w ad that reveals the trans status and specifies the sexual orientation of your desired partner. Continue to bug craigslist to add a t4w or ftm4w section, and encourage your friends to write emails too. Check out other websites like butchfemmematchmaker and okcupid.

11 Comments »

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To give a confirmation on your last bullet point, my ad was repeatedly flagged and removed from the w4w section, presumably because I was out about being a trans woman.

Anyway, looks like an interesting blog focus you’ve got here. I’ll definitely be watching.

Comment by Tobi — September 23, 2008 #

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To echo Tobi, from what I hear most trans women’s ads that position her as a woman–w4w, w4m, etc–and also as trans, her ad will be flagged and removed. (it hasn’t happened to me, but I don’t mention that I’m trans female spectrum in my ads, just “genderqueer” and everyone assumes that means FAAB. Then I imply being TFS by saying I won’t accept trans misogyny. …but it’s not just Tobi)

Comment by Cedar — September 25, 2008 #

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This blog is bananas! Keep writing!

Suggestions–
-Down Ski Vests
-Excessive Sideburns
-Bike Culture

Comment by Russell — October 1, 2008 #

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Oh wow, what a blog. I too am sick of searching w4w for ‘trans’ only to find a bunch of dudes and women looking for dudes.

Some further ideas for posts:
- bandannas around the neck
- ear plugs
- nose rings
- trucker caps
- youtube videos proudly showing off the latest chin whiskers
- wondering if using the stall in the men’s bathroom will immediately out you to all men within a mile radius
- complaining about how tough it is to be out at Smith

Comment by Carrie — October 4, 2008 #

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Word.

I’m curious about whether bisexual and gay trans men use the w4m section there, I mean, because they can apparently justify use of the w4w personals?? Zoinks. I sure wouldn’t use the w4m personals if I was looking for a mate. That can only lead to asshats that doesn’t respect your gender.

Comment by LindenTea — November 25, 2008 #

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The local equivalent of ‘Craigslist’ here in Austrlaia doesn’t have any FTM’s advertising in it, so I can’t comment, but I have to say I disagree with a lot of what you said in this post.

That aside, if FTM’s posting under W4W is having a negative effect on trans women’s participation in lesbian spaces, it would follow that trans men who participate in a lesbian website like butchfemmematchmaker would have an EVEN more negative effect, right?

Comment by raicalyffe — February 15, 2009 #

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What do you disagree with, Raicalyffe? I agree with everything he said but think you have a point about butchfemmematchmaker too.

Comment by Lynn — February 17, 2009 #

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To make a short and sweet answer, I think it’s a yes and a no. I do think ftms (and some, but as far as I can tell fewer, male-identified transitioned men) participating in a space by virtue of genitalia or chromosome status (add an “assumed” in front of both of those) or nebulous ideas around socialization *does* harm trans women who wish to participate in those spaces (particularly if they identify themselves as trans women). that’s the yes.
but the no is — butchfemmematchmaker is not a “lesbian” website as far as I can tell, and many people in butch femme communities don’t identity as women and would be offended and think it presumptuous to be assumed to identify as women.

Butchfemmematchmaker explicitly allows trans men to take part if they are willing to label themselves ftms—-women’s space seems to me to be different. I think if craigslist could be moved to create a queer4queer or ftm4w category, that might be a slightly more apt comparison to butchfemmematchmaker.

Comment by stufftransmenlike — February 17, 2009 #

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Great post. Seems to me that besides participating in transmisogyny, enforcing binary gender ideology, and undermining the “realness” of a trans guy’s male status, what posting in W4W does is *stop trans men from transforming masculinity from the inside.” OK, so there’s mass frustration that women avoid M4W because tons of guys are creeps. Well, if people actually tapped that frustration and collaborated to change the creepculture, then it would serve women who use the board and trans men who want female partners well. I mean, that’s a lot harder (collective action, work) then just freeloading on W4W. But in the long term it would be sooooo much better for everyone involved. Even creepy cis guys who could benefit from a little consciousness raising.

Comment by MewBoi — April 28, 2009 #

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What about transgender indidivuals, id’d as female at birth, that have a female sex id and a gender id of man? (e.g., Man in the streets, dyke in the sheets; been on hormones but had no surgery and no plan to do so) According to you, do they fit in the wfw section?

Comment by Wandering — July 16, 2009 #

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Well, I could easily pick apart your comment due to terminology. My focus in this post wasn’t on female assigned genderqueers and other non-male identified, female assigned transgender people. But taking your comment as is, I think given that what “woman” means is “identifying as a woman” then anyone identified as a man would necessarily be included in what I was talking about here. Frankly, the W4W category is binary, so i am talking about people in the binary (in one way or another) here.

Honestly, I also have met plenty of trans men who will twist their own identities just to continue accessing space where cissexual men would not be allowed.

But in general, i didn’t write this post to try to police women’s spaces. It was a piece to encourage further thought.
Thanks for stopping by.

Comment by stufftransmenlike — July 16, 2009 #

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